UKF3A Forum

Entries are invited for the Skelbrooke National League League competition on the 31st May 2026
All schedules will be flown including the 'F schedule
If you prepared to judge, please let me know as soon as possible.  This could be either as a pilot judge or pure judge. 

• Gate Opening: Around 8:00.
• Pilots Briefing: At 8:30.
• First Flight: Scheduled for 9:00.

CD: Brian Hoare

Clubman


Intermediate


Advanced (A27)
Graham Gooch

Preliminary (P27)
Malcolm Harris
Ken Moss
Gerhard Fehringer
Brian Hoare
Mike Pole - withdrawn
David Matthias
Adrian Harrison

Preliminary and Final (P&F 27)
Stephen Burgess
Keith Jackson


Judges

Ross Donovan

PLEASE, WE STILL REQUIRE FURTHER ENTRIES

CD: Brian Hoare

Hello Bob,
I regret I will need to withdraw from the comp.
Apologies for any inconvenience.
Best regards, Mike

Hi Mike,
I have pressed the 'refund' button - you should get your fee back in your account in a few days.
Simon

In order to make this Competition fully viable, we urgently need to fill the remaining spaces.

So if you've been thinking about Skelbrooke, we would most grateful if you can get your entries in as soon as possible please.

Morning All,

Due to unforeseen circumstances Bob is no longer able to CD the competition. This is for this season and also going forward. So I am hoping that someone would be able to step forward and CD it. 

I would be looking for someone to CD for 2026 and then someone going forward to next season ect.

Also we are a bit thin on entry's, as Graham said above it would be great to get any entry's in sooner rather then later please 🙏 

Hi Yazz

I can do it as I will have the scoring system. I just need all pilots to know I am standing in for Bob and to PM me directly if circumstances change that they cannot attend by the Wednesday before the competition date.

If Bob could also assist me with any club rules I need to disclose to everyone, that would be great.

Brico

Judges

Dear all, at the present moment although we can justify proceeding at no financial loss, unfortunately due to the entries we need judges.

We either need more P&F pilots to judge P Only of we need none flying judges. Any volunteers

If we are unable resolve this then the competition is at risk of being cancelled.

Regards

Brico

Hi Brian,

I've just entered and can judge P-27. If necessary, I am okay to fly in P-27 only if no P-27/F-27 judges attend. I guess in this situation we'd have to have two flying and judging groups in operation, or rotate the judges as they do in Scottish events?

Thanks

Keith

Dear All,

We are aware that some of our regular competitors are flying in Belgium the weekend before Skelbrooke, but we urgently need some more entries please.

At the present entry level, it does look rather bad when a club gives up the use of their site and we only have 8 pilots turn up to fly.

Please check those diaries and get your entries in as soon as possible if you're available.

Many thanks in advance.

Quote from: Keith Jackson on 11, May 2026, 08:30:48 AMHi Brian,

I've just entered and can judge P-27. If necessary, I am okay to fly in P-27 only if no P-27/F-27 judges attend. I guess in this situation we'd have to have two flying and judging groups in operation, or rotate the judges as they do in Scottish events?

Thanks

Keith

Thanks Keith apologies for the late delay see you there hopefully

2026.05.31 Sunday - Skelbrooke National League Competition 

Entries are till open for this competition at Skelbrooke National League on the 31st May 2026
All schedules will be flown including the 'F schedule

If you prepared to judge, please let me know as soon as possible.  This could be either as a pilot judge or pure judge. 

• Gate Opening: Around 8:00.
• Pilots Briefing: At 8:30.
• First Flight: Scheduled for 9:00.

CD: Brian Hoare
Clubman

Intermediate

Advanced (A27)
Graham Gooch

Preliminary (P27)
Malcolm Harris
Ken Moss
Gerhard Fehringer
Brian Hoare
Mike Pole - withdrawn
David Matthias
Adrian Harrison

Preliminary and Final (P&F 27)
Stephen Burgess
Keith Jackson

Due to the shortfall on entries, I am proposing 4 rounds (weather permitting) best 3 from 4 with P&F's flying 2 rounds of each P & F, There will be sufficient breaks between each round.

As per rules only the P&F flights will be normalised, flight orders will be posted by the end of Friday.

Judges
Ross Donovan all schedules
Steve Burgess Adv & P Only 2 rds
Keith Jackson Adv & P Only  2 rds

CD: Brian Hoare
(https://ukf3a.com/smf/Themes/Radiohead/images/icons/clip.png) Skelbrooke Directions (2).doc (https://ukf3a.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=15757)
3.82 MB

Good evening all 9 Pilots

My weather apps suggests a dry day with moderate winds from the west, so we will be holding four rounds.

Order of flights P27, A27, P&F

Judging scheduling

Rounds 1 & 3  (P27 Only,A27)                   Rounds 2 & 4 (P27 Only,A27)
Ross Donovan                                               Ross Donovan
Keith Jackson                                               Steve Burgess

Rounds 1 & 2  ( P&F-P27)                          Rounds 3 & 4 (P&F- F27)
Ross Donovan                                               Ross Donovan
Gerhard Fehringer                                         Adrian Harrison (TBC)

[url="https://ukf3a.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=15888;type=preview;file"]A-27_flightorder.pdf[/url] [url="https://ukf3a.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=15889;type=preview;file"]FAI_PF_flightorder.pdf[/url] [url="https://ukf3a.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=15890;type=preview;file"]P-27_flightorder.pdf[/url]

First flight 9am, barrier should be open by 8am.

See you on Sunday

Brico

On Brians behalf here are the final scores with individual flight scores.

Phil

Here is a link to a few images taken at the Competition

IMG 5746 | UKF3A Photo Gallery (https://ukf3a.com/gallery/picture.php?/14430/category/412)

Nice to see that the Notaumatics sorted out the P results in line with what was previous GBRCAA unofficial policy in the case of a dead heat -  the "count back" system. i,e the pilot with the highest other score (3rd in a 3 round contest) wins.

In a 4 round competition where only 1 flight is dropped - it still works. (assuming notaumatics agree)

The only downside for me was the proliferation of shorts! Some tragic. And it was still only May.

Notaumatic calculates results as per FAI rules which state (in effect) that in the case of a dead heat the discarded flight is counted.

Interesting to note that
1 if the FAI approved normalisation method had been used Gerhard would have won anyway with 2000 points. 
2 it looks like a different judging panel for round 2 and so that panel's scores were totally discarded in determining the top two.  Is it right that where you have different judging panels we should be using raw scores instead of normalised?  

Not sure I understand your points, we are using the FAI normalisation method i.e pilot with highest raw score scores 1,000 and other points a percentage of that i.e top pilots raw score divided by theit raw score X 1,000.

We aren't using raw scores at all in P and F to calculate scores, you can't as there has to be a equalisation of points between P and the F schedules, I don't understand the point you are making here.

Not sure I understand your point Phil. 

Aren't we talking about a tie in the P only comp. 

Yes Brandon, both Gerhard and Dave were flying in P only so as per the results raw scores were used.

It is just purely coincidence that round 2 scores were dropped for both pilots, probably due to the weather conditions at the time the second round was flown. The wind strength and direction was very variable so possibly had something to do with it. I don't recall there being different judges for round two compared to the other two rounds so probably had no bearing on it.

As far as I am aware, the Notaumatics are programmed in accordance with FAI guidelines and UKF3A always drop one round in a competition.

Although both pilots final scores were 813.00 based on rounds one and three, the Notaumatic system used the scores from the dropped round to place the pilots in the order as per the results even though the scores were identical.

I hope this clarifies your question?

Hi Graham

It doesn't answer my question at all (you must be a politician).

My question was: 

"Is it right that where you have different judging panels we should be using raw scores instead of normalised?"

According to earlier posts on this thread there was planned to be a different judging panel for round two compared to rounds one and three.  I was not there so I am not sure if the rota was followed.

Normalisation is used to overcome matters such as a harsher or more lenient judging panels.  It also caters for a round in adverse weather conditions.  Assume as you have said that conditions were more difficult in round two and scores were 10% lower.  Why drop that round?  Someone would have still won it; would have been the best flyer in that round would have coped with the adversity better than others.

What I am saying is that if normalised scores were used Gerhard would have won with 2000 points.

And my question was as above.

Hi Brandon & Graham,

Steve Burgess was due to judge in R2 but had to leave early due to ill health. Subsequently, Ross and I judged all three rounds for P-27 and A27. My understanding of UK F3A rules is that normalisation isn't an option for National League P-27 competitions?

I'm not sure this addresses your question?

Keith

Brandon, without wishing to open a potential massive "can of worms" as far as I recall, it was the same two judges, judging all three rounds of P-27.

Whilst I understand your point of normalisation to potentially rule out harsh or lenient judging, the reason Raw scores were reintroduced was to avoid any competitors gaining 1000 points in both rounds one and two and then not having to fly any further rounds as they couldn't be beaten.

Whereas with raw scores, the competition is still open until the end of round three in the case of a three round National League competition, meaning pilots have to fly in all three rounds before an overall winner can be decided upon.

Clearly normalisation has to be used where P & F schedules are flown in the same competition due to the differences in K factors.

Hi Keith. 

Thanks for clarifying re the judging.  

As for answering the question, not really. It just tells me what the rules are. It is not a meaningful argument as why we don't normalise. If we change the UKF3A rules we can normalise.  

Graham. 

Yes. It is opening that can of worms.  As far as I can see it the only reason we don't normalise is so that the judges feel valued in round three. But is it the fair and appropriate method? 

Brandon 

No Brandon - being fair to judges is not the  reason! Since when have we ever been fair to judges?

Its purely to be fair to competitors and it keeps the competition open until 3 rounds have been flown. That is fair & better for people moving up the P ranks.

Yes - in some circumstances normalising the competition would alter the result. But so what?

That would be simply applying FAI rules, tailored  for a multi round 2 flight line FAI competition, probably with many judging panels, flown over an entire week.. Ours is a 3 round competition, flown on the same day and I argue it's completely necessary that the 3rd round counts in all circumstances.

Counting the 3rd round can be a real incentive for people to produce a winning 3rd flight & the very essence of fair competition.

ps - the very term " raw scores" has always pissed me off. As if somehow they are imperfect & need to be modified by software. They certainly do not.

I know there will always be people who argue that normalising produces a better result.
It is completely necessary at WC & similar events - but in our case of 1 day P only events, I'm afraid it just takes away & adds nothing.

Noted. 

When the judging panels stay the same:

I think either way is fair and we select the majority preference.

When the judging panels change:

When we had two flight lines, imagine that, we "had" to normalise because the judges were different.

So I would say it can be unfair in a three round one day comp when judges change.

So ...

Judges stay the same, raw scores at the moment, judges change, normalise.

Mike

I totally agree with normalising the scores when the judging panels are changed (as is now commonly necessary).
Surely when judges change it is the only means of establishing a fair result.
I agree with Brandon that it may also help with variances in the weather conditions between rounds.
I do understand the point made about how raw scores incentivise pilots for the third round but I don't think it necessarily leads to a fair result.

Mike P

Hi Mike, That makes a lot of sense.

When schedules or judges change, normalisation is the way to go.

When they don't then normalising can also be unfair, why should one pilot's
score affect another pilot's score?

In reality it rarely happens but one pilot suddenly flying their socks off can diminish another
pilot's best performance.

m

Curate's egg Mike. Ok, but only  in parts.........

Perfect Stuart!

m